Exploring OpenText GPAS in Life Sciences, with Richard Lightfoot

Join us in welcoming Richard Lightfoot for his first appearance on the show! Rich leads the sales and business strategy development of OpenText Global Product Authentication Service, or GPAS, in the Americas and is responsible for channel partner and new market opportunities.

Dori and Rich have a great discussion around the applicability and importance of GPAS within the life sciences industry. GPAS is based on unit level serialization of finished goods and helps brands protect their products and secure their supply chains through the delivery of innovative analytics and business intelligence - all while creating a new marketing channel in which to engage their customers.

Connect with Richard on LinkedIn here and learn more about GPAS here.

*Disclaimer: Podcast guest participated in the podcast as an individual subject matter expert and contributor. The views and opinions they share are not necessarily shared by their employer. Nor should any reference to specific products or services be interpreted as commercial endorsements by their current employer.

This is a production of ProcellaRX

Transcript

Dori Gonzalez-Acevedo: 0:00

Well, welcome to another episode of software quality. Today, I'm with rich Lightfoot from open text today, I'm super excited by having this conversation into a topic that I found fascinating. And I thought it was definitely something that I needed to bring to everyone's intention. So welcome rich to the show.

Richard Lightfoot: 0:19

Thanks, Tori. Glad to glad to be here.

Dori Gonzalez-Acevedo: 0:22

So I would love for you to take a moment and kind of give the folks a more in depth understanding of who you are. I know we did a quick intro of you in the bumper, but I wanted to hear let you kind of describe how you came to be in the role of the GPS owner, you're like the architect of GPS, right? For the most part, you kind of started off the group.

Richard Lightfoot: 0:46

Ah, well, I joined the group in 2016, when we were part of H P E. G pass actually dates back to our Twitch creation by Hewlett Packard or HP. And I joined to be the Americas lead for cheapass from a strategy perspective, from a business development perspective, working with channel partners, like for seller RX, like other partners, and also direct customers on a global scale, based here in the US.

Dori Gonzalez-Acevedo: 1:25

Awesome. So what what were you doing before

Richard Lightfoot: 1:30

my career dates back to digital printing actually, prior to coming on board in the in the software world. So I was involved in printing here in the Washington area, from a digital perspective from anything you can imagine marketing, collateral magazines, for associations, and what I found is that industry, mainly the print industry was becoming very plateaued, very mature. So what would CI pass, we actually end up as a printed code on products in a variety of different fashion. So I started sort of made the connection and pivoted into the security field, initially with with cheapass, back in 2016. So that's, it's kind of a it's sort of almost two careers, but they are connected through through a print aspect, but I'm really enjoying joining the software side of it, and how it's growing.

Dori Gonzalez-Acevedo: 2:38

So can you tell us all what GPS stands for him? What is it mean? And so I think that's very interesting history here.

Richard Lightfoot: 2:47

cheapass stands for Global Product authentication service. And I mentioned it was designed and built by Hewlett Packard, back in 2009, they had a serious, two serious problems. One was counterfeiting, where fake HP products were entering the market, and the other one was gray market diversion. Diversion is a real product. But it's meant to go down one channel, one distribution channel. And what we find is distributors will take that product and divert it to another market generally for profit reasons. But what this does is erode trust in the channel market, and affects the market where those products are being diverted. So counterfeit products, that illicit behavior, and this diversion of products or gray market diversion. So, so HP went out on the market in 2009, to look for a solution to apply to their situation and couldn't find it. So they ended up building it internally. wildly successful. In fact, in 2013, they conducted a raid in Saudi Arabia, based on the analytics that cheapass was providing. And what they found is a warehouse with a total of about $70 million of HP products, counterfeit products, and it was initially set up for the ink and toner market. But what they found in that warehouse was a variety of HP products that were counterfeit, so hugely successful in that endeavor. And what they realized is that they're not the only brand that was suffering from these sorts of illicit activities. So cheapass wasn't named to pass at the time, but received that name, and became a standalone service that HP started offering across the globe. And that's really how it got started and how it grew and then through software companies mergers and acquisitions as that occurs, we went to HPE. That's when I joined in 2016 as the Americas lead, as I mentioned, and then in 2017, we became part of microfocus. And recently 2023, we are part of open text, as you know, and where we fit in and open Texas is going to be very interesting. Because they have a division, the healthy division called Business Network cloud, primarily focusing on the internet of things. And if you think about it, as we get into cheapass, we are an internet of things. But we happen to be the internet of packaging of products, giving a digital life to any product for any brand that is out on the open market. So it's a it's a good fit, coming into open Tex.

Dori Gonzalez-Acevedo: 5:54

Yeah, what I found interesting, and as I've been a partner and a user of a lot of HP and microfocus products over the years, this was kind of like this sleeping giant that I stumbled upon as Persol. X came as to be a full partner with open text, and I was really interested in it, because there I see there's so many applications within life sciences that have been perhaps not necessarily looked at, or thought of how to integrate integrate all these tools together. And why as a platform itself is an integral part of a business strategy that should be considered. So can you tell me a little bit more about some of the use cases that you have identified within the life sciences?

Richard Lightfoot: 6:42

Yeah, life sciences is a is a strong market for for cheapass. And if we look at some of those use cases, for example, over the counter nutraceutical products, is a big space for us, a lot of those products suffer from the same problems, like the consumer product goods that HP was offering in other brands like that, that illicit behavior, a lot of those get knocked off get diverted. So number one, brand protection is a big use case within within life sciences. And the other is just an understanding of product movement and traceability. A lot of Life Science products are consumed by you and I and people. So having the ability to secure your supply chain and know what's going on in your supply chain, the movement of products, and being able to convey that from a trust perspective to consumers that are ingesting those, in this case, nutraceuticals. Is is key. So having an understanding of where it's moving securely, and I'll give you an example of that we had a customer in New Zealand, that was in the infant care, business and still are. But they produced their formula in very large containers that went out to supply partners that was then mixed down co packed into units for sale in China and other countries. And what there was a scare in China, where several children unfortunately died as a result of tainted infant formula. And as it turned out, it wasn't as a result of this particular company. But they couldn't guarantee that because they had a lack of visibility of their supply chain. So understanding the chain of custody from one location to the next, being able to show that document it show the folks involved show what specific individual products, what bulk products in that case, were moved, received, and ultimately, can be accounted for down to the individual product level. So that's a key use case in life science sciences. And we're seeing that more and more, because one has been demanded from the consumer side. And obviously, it's in the case of that organization. There were government pressures to have it as well. So both sides are forcing that company to take action.

Dori Gonzalez-Acevedo: 9:35

Yeah, so there's an infant formula. There's, especially in China, there's a lot of laws and regulations around how those need to be tracked and traced. It's an ideal use case for something like G pass. But to your point, the what I see in the complexity of our supply chain today, particularly on Life Sciences is getting so much so many more pieces. is in it's part of the puzzle, right? And how to really how to really navigate all that in one cohesive way, is very difficult, right? So the company that actually markets and produces the end thing might have 234 100 pieces of the supply chain that, that go into that right? And then how to that that web, if you will, of, of complexity requires sophisticated technology in order to make meaning of all of that. And so I think that's a enormous added value.

Richard Lightfoot: 10:39

Yeah, I mean, at the core of cheapass, there were two mandates by the CEO of HP at the time when it was created. One, it had to be cost effective. We're seeing that play out in the blockchain world. Because initial instances of that have not been cost effective. And you're seeing people like IBM, IBM, saying, Hey, we're not just going to throw money at this, we're getting out of the blockchain business. So the over art, the architecture has to be cost effective. It also has to be unobtrusive to systems in place at all those multiple locations that you're talking about, coexist with, being able to integrate with systems that are in play equipment that's in play. So it can be introduced quickly and efficiently. And again, back to the cost and cost effectively. And that sort of is at the heart of GE paths from day one. And we have plenty of customers that have obviously don't own the whole supply chain as you as you mentioned. So they still they have contractors, they have contract manufacturing, they have contract distributors, those distributors, it for them to be willing to participate, because some brands have the clout to say you will participate or you won't be my partner, but a lot don't. So there's got to be an ease of entry for that level to be able to come in and be a part of the of the solution. And that's where I think cheapass fits really well. Because we play well, with those systems, we integrate easily with those systems. We also, if there isn't a system have a standalone user interface. So cheapass can be the whole thing from A to B to C to D to E to the consumer, or there can be levels in there have, or systems in there that are already in place that we can integrate with and pick up data because it's all about data coming back at the moment,

Dori Gonzalez-Acevedo: 13:00

right? It's and then uniformity of that data when you bring it in. So can you speak a little bit to that, because one of the the primary use cases, is the traceability in terms of also then recall that that is an extension of that when things go wrong, right within life sciences. And so how does that kind of play into folks using so I was recently at a conference when the whole notion of recall came up. And and still to this day, there is a paper process in place in most organizations in order to send physical letters and to to establish folks that were on record at a point in time in order to get that information back in terms of recall. Right. And it was kind of startled me that, that even today in 2023, there's still such a manual process around the recall mechanism. And so can how can Dupas help in this sort of way?

Richard Lightfoot: 14:03

Yeah, well, there are a lot of different systems in that come into play with recalls you just mentioned. But I think two things that G pasque can do very well is number one, identify what needs to be recalled. And so how do we do that? So every product gets a unique identity, a code on every single product and and we're code agnostic, but going back to that cost effective and unobtrusive will tend to be a QR code on a product. And when I say a QR code, I mean a different QR code on every single product and a QR code. Think of it like a sponge. It has the ability to accept information. So that QR code on a production line that's running at a particular moment connect sets, expiry date, batch number, product lot number, any attribute that you want to attach to it that is stuck with that particular code on that particular product, when it when it leaves the manufacturing plant. So it's a known entity of when it was produced, what batch it was a part of. And then we can write business rules around that. So if a batch is identified as bad, or several batches, we can understand where those batches, what is involved, how many products, what specific products where they have been transported. And I think you'll still have some mechanisms of their of communicating with where they've been distributed. But having that knowledge upfront, is absolutely critical. And then, because we've done this legwork up front, added this information to the individual QR codes on individual products, we can engage with consumers to update that information upon scanning that particular QR code. So that they are aware that this particular product is part of a recall. But it's it's all about adding to the to the knowledge of of where these are, what products are involved. And that's how cheapass can really help. We take that a little bit farther and integrate with some some systems in some government systems was specifically focused on recall, mainly up in Canada and debt down in Australia, we are the backbone of some systems for specific use case of just recall in those particular countries, and it's part of what they call the Food Network service. So yeah, I mean, that's the knowledge is key in this situation, being able to know what's bad and know where it is, and being able to help get that off the shelves. But also, if it does get into consumers hands, give the consumers have a mechanism to to identify exactly. If they have a good product or not, again, that speaks to that sort of trust and sources as well. And that's what we do. That's what we do very well.

Dori Gonzalez-Acevedo: 17:22

In that sense, it's more than just the label. Right? And I think that that's like at the heart. Yeah, the heart of it is that I think one of the, when we came to from a life science perspective said, you know, serialization is a thing, we need to do serialization, like it was a very, like, not thinking about the broader sense of what that really means, and how does it extend throughout the supply chain, but more of just an activity that needed to be done and implemented. And so when I think of, and when I see G paths in use, and what you've demonstrated in some of the use case, is I take that one step further in terms of the life science kind of personalized medicine, way of which and direct to consumers that companies are now marketing and going direct to right. So we're, we're in an age where there is truly solutions and therapies that are unique to an individual and personalized medicine and how a system and platform like GPS can help make that chain that custody chain to that individual as as quickly as possible. Just is really kind of the next extension for me, what do you think about some of the other future use cases that you see?

Richard Lightfoot: 18:49

Yeah, I mean, well, just building on the topic of recall, we worked with a major company here in the United States that had that happen to them and had to pull a lot of products off the shelf. And that is very costly to do that. But it's also damaging to the to the brand's reputation. So being able to have a on the package digitized package communication level between the brand and the consumer, and regain that trust is going to be very important as they as they come back to market which they are. And I mentioned adding attributes to QR code, this particular company adds all the quality steps that they go through and checks to a product so when a consumer scans it, it's a good product at this point. They're not going to get any sort of recall type message but they will get a message that says this product has passed these checks you know And the messaging that they want to give to the consumer, but that's going to help build that reputation back up. So that's obviously a use case of how that engagement and consumer engagement. I mean, that's, that is an example of consumer engagement. And we're seeing that more and more.

Dori Gonzalez-Acevedo: 20:22

Definitely changing, right, like we, as consumers alike are changing. So I, you know, I have my medical device on my ring, right, that is a medical device. And I would like to know, immediately as it's connected to my app, when and if there's a recall associated with something that I'm wearing on my body. Now, my ring is an innocuous thing. But pacemakers is really important. Right? Put in rich plasma, from other people really important. Other things are much, much more critical. And utilizing kind of this way of which what I like what you're saying, is a combination, it's not just about the regulations anymore, right? It's about combining quality by design from the very, very start, right. And if we can do that, and and that also then builds the company in the brand of whatever it is, right? But it's very intentional, from the very start, rather than waiting to something happens or waiting for a change in regulation to occur, right, it's kind of just best business practice.

Richard Lightfoot: 21:29

Look, we want things quickly for how our society is, is working now. So information we want to, we want it fast. Another use case, I could give you this, as you know, unrelated to recall to brand protection, but is growing a product and in a new market. And having instant data of how you're doing is key. So we have a bit of a particular customer that uses it for sample management and think these are sort of over the counter type products. But they would be recommended to you say if you had an orthopedic operation, and you were in the lobby, there might be something in there. That is a product you take after the surgery that helped maybe your scar tissue heal or something of that nature. But think of samples reps are a company that put these engaged with doctors, you know, 50 60,000 different operations, healthcare providers around the country, to put samples in their lobby, talk to the doctor to get them to recommend it in those situations and build that rapport. But having an understanding of is that working? Is it resulting in sales and having that information come to you quickly. So what we do is with that code, on those products, those individual codes that go into the lobby, the sales rep can scan that code, either at an individual level or a case level, and assign them to a healthcare provider, that healthcare provider then puts them in the lobby, we can track the consumer engagement with that product. And we can understand if it absolutely, and there's a typically an incentive there to try it, purchase it. We can track it all the way through to that. So that's instant information of how your products in a sample management program are working or not, you'll you'll understand if that healthcare provider is at the top of the charts in movement of products and scans and sales or not. And those are sort of where you can have those targeted conversations in this scenario of how to use a code and how to how to help a sample program. So that's another use case that we're seeing.

Dori Gonzalez-Acevedo: 23:54

Yeah, I like that. I wonder if you can talk a little bit about some of the challenges you've seen. I can imagine that data structure is probably at the top of your list, but I was curious of what you think are some of the challenges you've seen in implementing programs when you come into somewhere? What are what are some of the things that companies are not thinking about or should be thinking about?

Richard Lightfoot: 24:22

That's that's a good question. I mean, when when you look at GPS when you put a code on a product, if you have to have buy in not only where it's going to be directly involved, but certainly you know, a marketing team related to the packaging. The team that is responsible, whether it's an internal manufacturing facility or or not a contract manufacturing, how are they going to buy into this new code and some actions that they may have to take based on requirements of putting this code on. Examples of that are not so, so much in the life sciences, but we have some consumer product good customers that contract manufacturer, their goods, and they require those manufacturers to put a code cheapass code on. And they require those manufacturers in some process to add some attributes to that, where it was produced when it was produced information, again, that is attached to those individual QR codes, there are some process changes that have to be thought of in the manufacturing in the supply chain. We integrate with district main distributors like DHL, and FedEx to understand sort of the last leg of where that product is going to a retail operation. Those we would, we would require a step in that case to identify the products being shipped. So there are some steps that must be considered with your partners, whether they're our partners, or whether it's an internal operation. And then sort of getting a broad base of buy in from different departments within the organization. Now folks in the marketing don't like to change their their packaging. The nice thing about again, we're code agnostic. And what I mean by that we could be taking information from RFID for NFC, but a QR code on a package. One, they're ubiquitous, everyone knows what they do. Because we just went through a period where a lot of paper products were taken off the menu, for example, scan, and we still aren't doing that. So so the QR code is a known entity out in the market. And it's doesn't you just point your camera at it and go. And, and so that's why it's we're seeing it become so effective. But marketers historically don't want to add things they want to have their packaging look as as pretty and as cool as possible. And I get it. But that's changing with the this ubiquitous nature of the QR code and its acceptance. And its acceptance, because everyone knows what to do with it. You don't even have to tell anyone, hey, st scan here. I mean, we have other players out in the market that have fancier sort of designs, and interesting sort of marks. A lot of those you have to download an app to read. One of the things we found because we had that back in the security day to add security to a to a code was that the drop off rate and abandonment rate of scanning a QR code or code that required a download of an app was was tremendous, statistically. And this is sort of ironic, but 18 to 24 year olds have a higher rate of abandonment for downloading apps than older older folks in the tune of like 85% of people of 18 to 20 year olds will abandon the process when asked to download an app to read a particular mark, where it's about 78 in the 55. And over. That's weird, strange, interesting, but even 78% You don't want to have that abandonment, right. Because the code brings the data in what product is right

Dori Gonzalez-Acevedo: 28:46

and so for the truce, yeah, right. So the for the true story, right, if we do from the very cradle to grave sort of scenario, right? need folks to scan at every part of the process in order to get the data that you need us

Richard Lightfoot: 29:01

and yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. There's got to be

Dori Gonzalez-Acevedo: 29:06

educate me a little but that's the same in blockchain too. I would think, right. I mean, it's the See you still need human interaction at some or or not necessarily human but you need an interaction a lot

Richard Lightfoot: 29:20

to do the thing with Blockchain concepts conceptually, yeah, it's, it's great. Practically not so great. Because it's hard to implement. There's systems that have to be in place at every single level. You know, this is why IBM got out of it. They, they couldn't cost justify it. They had a big, I think I think Merck was involved there was a consortium that they were trying to develop. But the ROI of putting those systems in at every single space was way too expensive. Of the, I mean, there's a sustainability aspects spinning up servers at every single instance, the beyond the blockchain energy costs cost of the equipment, you know, so those sorts of things. And that's why they got out of it. And that's where sort of our system is based on cloud, a cloud system. And I think you'll see blockchain come around to that. But, you know, IBM just got out of it the end of 2022, and are spinning down. So it has to evolve because of those reasons, hard to implement, expensive to implement. Whereas we feel that a cloud based system where it's easy to jump in and participate is a lot more effective, because you're right, every point has to acknowledge and contribute to that data stream.

Dori Gonzalez-Acevedo: 30:57

Yeah. I mean, I find the power and when I first saw you guys demo for me the power of possibility in the solution. And that is what excited me most is that the concept of what you've developed and how you can apply it to a variety of different scenarios, right? Where and that's, you know, part of why we talk about these use cases, because like, this is a similar terminology when folks talks are talking about AI and machine learning and blockchain, right, it's these use cases like you, we can think up a lot of different things. Right? We're just really good at that as humans, right? It, but we can be really super specific with GPS. And as long as we identify the business process along the way that we're trying to, to capture. And that's what your team does as well, correct?

Richard Lightfoot: 31:53

Yeah, I mean, to that point, we've been involved in, I think it's two or three studies that have resulted in I think it's higher than white papers, but with a Colorado State University, and it is about analyzing the data. Look, what cheapass, there is the fundamental day to day operational, this product went from a to b, I want to sit make sure it got there from a track and trace, or I pick up a product. And I want to understand it, how it got here, where did it go through? Where was it produced? So that's tracking trace going out and the traceability going back those day to day things. But you know, what, if we and this is what Colorado State University, we started putting some mathematical algorithms to the data from a sort of consumer perspective on the back end where the product was being engaged and, and that sort of analysis is going to is going to grow, especially with AI. You know, what predictive sort of things that can be produced as a result of, of artificial intelligence, the potential for products to be go into the gray market, as it understands where those exist. That is going to be an exciting trend of how the state on the back end is studied and, and worked. It's going to be very, very interesting.

Dori Gonzalez-Acevedo: 33:28

So I can also imagine, given the technology, it doesn't matter where samples, for example, end up going in the world. Right. So that historically has also been a pain point for like Clinical Trial Management and stuff like that, right, where there is a lack of Internet and other sorts of issues economically, that that don't allow that. But but with a GPS, I'm thinking that we could foresee some of those things and make sure that those are in place in order for the full conductivity of the of the cycle gets back to you.

Richard Lightfoot: 34:08

Yeah, I mean, there's there's different models, I mean, for the most part, it is it is going to be internet based and where connectivity from an internet perspective is available. And that's that that's obviously growing tremendously. We have had situations where it wasn't available, we had to resolve back to sort of SMS technology out in the field with some malaria drug tests we did way back in the very beginning and how they got to the market. But I think we don't see it as a huge problem today with the with the brands that we are working with. And what you will see what cheapass is every every connection, every engagement whether in the city I change or from a consumer perspective, is captured and displayed on our dashboards and historically kept. We keep that data. I think it's up to seven years now. Yeah. So

Dori Gonzalez-Acevedo: 35:13

what do you think are some future? Use cases? And and what trends and things that you're seeing within whether it's within the fraud area, the traceability area supply chain of, of where do you see? And what do we need to be focusing on as we're looking towards the future?

Richard Lightfoot: 35:33

Yeah, you know, brand protection is a big one, because it's where you can buy, where we can buy our products today is just greatly expanded, you know, the online sources through social media through you know, big, big companies like Amazon, eBay, and so forth. So we can do that we can buy it there. But that means it also can be sold there. So that's continually going to be a problem of, of trusting the products that you're that you're purchasing. I mean, counterfeiting is in the trillions of dollars as a as a problem worldwide. And it is not just that the product is fake, and in your hands, and you have a fake good, that hurts the revenue of the brand. You know, there's cases where it, it contributes to people doing a financial resource to people doing other bad things. So you know, that is continually going to be a problem and continually need services like cheapass. To help prevent it, identify it quickly, just just quick story, going back a little bit. With a big, life style type, outdoor company here in the US. When I first met with them, they received a package back, I happen to be at their corporate office received a package back, and it was fake products. And these fake products. Obviously were identified. Many months ago, consumer complaint brand says shipping back, they pay to have them ship them back, they get their investigate, yes, it is a counterfeit. And now they gotta figure out where that was, that was potentially produced, how it was produced. And that's going to take months now G paths will identify a fake product in real time. So not only you the consumer, no, but the brand will get that in real time as well. And they can investigate where the sort of trend analysis of activity is occurring, and combine that with their other resources to help help shut it down. So that again, that information exchange is only going to continue to expand. And it needs to expand because that's a growing problem. growing trend is this kind of activity. The other thing, you know, is a supply chain. I mean, we've been in a global environment, global market for many, many years. So having an understanding of where your products are moving, when they're moving rules around, they're moving, how long it should take to get from A to B, being able to track that, but also be able to trace it, trace it back on that that's going to only increase in importance, along with the brand protection side. And then finally, I'd say it's just that the digital tape digitization of products, and what consumers are demanding, I mean, understanding where it was sourced where it came from, you know, those are how it was sourced. And that understanding of the life of your product in your hands will dictate buying decisions. And so it's gonna be a continued growth in trend there. To educate consumers consumers are demanding it now. In every shape and form, so yeah,

Dori Gonzalez-Acevedo: 39:26

yeah. Yeah. And so along those lines, how do you see that so it would be available? Let's just take you know, I don't want to I want to purchase vegan clothing. Right. So they didn't know that it's, you know, it's sourced ethically in a vegan sort of way. How, how would a consumer we wouldn't need to be like individual manufacturers. Enrolling in a program. That's that's kind of how it would have to be right, it would have to be individual companies kind of taking a stand to verify and make available publicly that they their energy or sustainability goals or whatever their their goals are being met, right?

Richard Lightfoot: 40:23

How its produced, everything that went into that particular product doesn't necessarily have to be captured via cheapass. But it needs to be ingested by GPS. So there are situations where we have a consumer product on a market of food product. And in a supermarket, where we know, we have farm data that we're bringing in and combining down to the individual product level or the code that ends up on the individual product. And so that the consumer is well educated in what they're buying. But you know, that the flexibility of a system like Jeep has to be able to ingest that data, and then make it an engagement point for for consumers. But yeah, I mean, we're seeing that more and more different entities can participate with systems that generate that data, we just need to be able to integrate with that and capture that data efficiently. And that's what we're not potentially out in the field with the system that's collecting that data. But we're the ones that are going to culminate buying it with the individual. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dori Gonzalez-Acevedo: 41:47

Yeah, can see, that'd be hugely valuable, right? To wanting to understand, again, going back to people are buying based on their values, and what they want to see corporations do today or not, or be aligned with what they say that they're going to do or not. And so this is one mechanism to be able to do that.

Richard Lightfoot: 42:08

Another use case, I mean, recycling of products is huge. So I mentioned, one of the engagement points is that we do is loyalty and rewards. And we connect with systems that do that. So its product has a unique identity, it can only be redeemed once. But we've some jurisdictions have different recycling. You know, not laws, but what they will recycle in this particular bin in that particular bin, some products need to be brought someplace to be recycled. So what we can do there is combined recycling with loyalty and rewards and offer points based on the product and the code on that particular product when it's when it's recycled. And, and so you scan a product, and you understand how it should be recycled, where it can be recycled and prospective to where you are in your geolocation. And you can get points and you're gonna see more and more of that come into play, because it's being driven from from consumers. So all these different use cases as it relates to sustainability. And, yes, the corporate structure has to have that messaging that can be part of that information exchange on a scan. But then this is an example of not only having that, but taking it a step farther and helping people with their own values. That, you know, as it relates to our environment are only strengthening.

Dori Gonzalez-Acevedo: 43:48

Yeah, very cool. Well, I always find something new and interesting every time we talk, which it's, I think it's a fascinating topic, and also very, in line with some of the things that I work on with my team and folks have round, true business process understanding, right. And I think that that's something that is potentially a lost art these days of taking the time to really understand business operations and what they mean and where is everything going. I think in my space, we often call it like a data map. But literally, there's also the product map and like footprint of what and how things are moving throughout the world, which is really, really super important as well. So I thank you for that.

Richard Lightfoot: 44:39

Absolutely. My pleasure. Thank you first.

Dori Gonzalez-Acevedo: 44:44

Absolutely. Is there any some last parting words or things for folks to to ponder or think about as they move forward with some of their initiatives?

Richard Lightfoot: 44:56

Yeah, you know, like I started at the beginning I mean sterilization is is not new. It's it's been done for, you know, simple basic reasons, mandated reasons, government mandated reasons and good reasons. But now, I think the key is, there's so many different use cases of how we can derive value as a result of that serialization. So we've talked about many here today, and it's only going to expand. And that's what, when I joined cheapass, I'd love the fact that we had the unique challenges or real challenges that company were facing. And we could we could help them with that, that those challenges have just gone from a finite little window to a very large window and the possibilities of how we can help them is tremendous. So very excited about where this goes, where we talked about AI comes in, and that sort of learning. And, and just, you know, solving some challenges that are a real world and in the global marketplace. So looking forward to it.

Dori Gonzalez-Acevedo: 46:03

Yeah. Very, very cool. Well, thanks, rich, and I hope you have a wonderful rest of your day. Thanks for spending time with us.

Richard Lightfoot: 46:10

Thanks, story. Take care. Bye